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Post by rubalamp on Nov 10, 2008 9:29:05 GMT -5
The list is a bit misleading in that regard...it actually mentions what they did in High school and then after as well...In the case of Robertson, one mention of HS and everything else was college and pro.
The criteria doesn't matter to me. If Larry Bird isn't one of the best high School players in Indiana, simply because he was one of the best players ever and played at a high school in Indiana, then the list is non-sense.
I assume Jordan would not be on his state's HS list either under this criteria...
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Post by showerslider on Nov 10, 2008 9:50:41 GMT -5
Bird and Conley are from 2 different eras in which the game was played alot different. They also played 2 different positions. Conley's value isn't just on his points scored, he was the PG on a team that argueably could be considered one of the most dominating teams in IHSAA history. You can have all the talent in the world, but if you don't have a PG to lead them, that talent won't reach it's full potential.
Bird came from a school with very little talent around him. Bird had to carry his team in all aspects. Being from a smaller school, and telling Bobby Knight to shove it isn't going to help him in making list such as these.
I can see Bird in the top 10, but I don't see removing anyone that is on the list. I to reserve the right to stick it to him, for sticking it to IU.
The story about Bird not wanting to play in the All-Star game made me think about his book. Bird had a bit of an attitude, which is needed to be successful in basketball, but alot of times was thought of as a whiner. He knew that the IU program would be tough for him, and that is why he backed out. You can't fault his work ethic, or what he became, but Bird has always had that chip on his shoulder when dealing with people.
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Post by foresterpride on Nov 12, 2008 8:28:54 GMT -5
"He knew that the IU program would be tough for him, and that is why he backed out. "
Knight himself has said his biggest regret was that he didn't reach out to Bird. And people around Bird have recalled the story that when Bird first arrived at IU he saw Knight and went up to say hello, and Knight didn't even recognize him as one of his players. Bird left IU shortly after.
I would believe most players would do the same.
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Post by Kyle Feller on Nov 12, 2008 8:35:37 GMT -5
Another example of why Larry Bird isn't one of the 10 greatest HIGH SCHOOL players in Indiana History.
Bobby Knight would know the kid otherwise.
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Post by foresterpride on Nov 12, 2008 8:40:01 GMT -5
In Indy they showed LN games all the time on TV. And what I saw was Oden made Conley. Virtually all of Conley's point out of sets came because teams double down on Oden, leaving Conley easy drive to the buck. Or Conley using a pick from Oden to get past defenders.
I don't think Conley would have been much better than Kramer if the schools would have been reversed.
As for Oden he got away with murder, when he didn't need to, he is very skilled shooter and passer. I never saw him play against another big man, would have like to see him against the Forest Park hoss that graduated that year.
Is there any room on this list for the Whitco kid, Steve Nicodemous (sp) ? Wasn't he the last one to lead a small school to the final 4 (minus Henderson and Brebeuf.)
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Post by Kyle Feller on Nov 12, 2008 8:46:02 GMT -5
......meanwhile, Conley was the #6 pick in the NBA draft....and Kramer will spend his life talking about the glory days of being a role player at Purdue.
Conley has proven himself at Ohio State while Oden was out with injuries and he's doing it in the NBA without Oden.
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Post by Loucks on Nov 12, 2008 8:57:24 GMT -5
I think it's a bit absurd to say that Kramer and Conley are on the same level. But, we all have our own opinions.
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Post by Kyle Feller on Nov 12, 2008 9:03:50 GMT -5
Agreed.
It's nice to see some hometown pride, but on the same note...you'll never hear me compare Kyle Runyan to Eric Gordon.
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Post by foresterpride on Nov 12, 2008 10:13:31 GMT -5
......meanwhile, Conley was the #6 pick in the NBA draft....and Kramer will spend his life talking about the glory days of being a role player at Purdue. Conley has proven himself at Ohio State while Oden was out with injuries and he's doing it in the NBA without Oden. Conley was surrounded by significant talent at OSU, even without Oden. Just because the NBA believe hype doesn't make Conley "God's gift to basketball". The NBA draft picks flop all the time. And Conley looks to be on his way to becoming a flop. He's already being replaced as the starter. I'd definitely compare Conley to Lyndon Jones. A good player who benefited from playing with a great player.
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Post by Loucks on Nov 12, 2008 10:24:22 GMT -5
As a freshmen in the NBA, Conley averaged 9.4 ppg, 4.2 apg, 2.6 rpg and shot a respectable .330 from beyond the arch. Though he's struggling a bit this year with the addition of OJ Mayo, we also have to remember we're only 8 games into the season. I'm wondering if Conley shouldn't be traded to another team. It'd be best for him and the Grizzlies as they can let Mayo play the "lead" guard role and get rid of the tradition PG position.
I think a better question regarding Oden and Conley is; will Oden ever be able to play a full season? Until he proves otherwise, he's one of the biggest busts of the last decade.
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Post by Kyle Feller on Nov 12, 2008 10:55:03 GMT -5
......meanwhile, Conley was the #6 pick in the NBA draft....and Kramer will spend his life talking about the glory days of being a role player at Purdue. Conley has proven himself at Ohio State while Oden was out with injuries and he's doing it in the NBA without Oden. Conley was surrounded by significant talent at OSU, even without Oden. Just because the NBA believe hype doesn't make Conley "God's gift to basketball". The NBA draft picks flop all the time. And Conley looks to be on his way to becoming a flop. He's already being replaced as the starter. I'd definitely compare Conley to Lyndon Jones. A good player who benefited from playing with a great player. Not sure who said Conley was "Gods Gift To Basketball" as it was quoted. However, I don't understand how you could POSSIBLY/REMOTELY compare Conley to Kramer. Conley has been part of the outstanding casts that you've spoken of (Lawrence North/Ohio State)....and I'm willing to bet played a HUGE roll in both situations. There are many scouts and scouting services that probably judge talent much better than you do. And judging by your Kramer comment, it's an absolute shoe in of the week guarantee. The kid is lighting quick...has tremendous handles...and get's to the rack. What else do you want from a 20 year old PG? I guess my only concern for you at this point..is that based on your theory, there hasn't ever been a good player on a great team...because each player on those teams has been surrounded by other good players. Take Conley off of Lawrence North and Ohio State, while they would still have success, it wouldn't be as profound as it was with Conley. Again, I respect hometown pride....but you've got to be kidding me. In looking at Kramers numbers......since being surrounded by other good players (Hummel, Martin, Etc) his numbers actually dropped from before they were around....while playing more minutes per game. Interesting.
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Post by foresterpride on Nov 12, 2008 12:06:19 GMT -5
Ok, you are taking the Kramer comparision way, way, way, way, to far. I only mention Kramer because they are very similar players in very different situations. Do we really want to pick apart every small comment?
But going with what you said: "Take Conley off of Lawrence North and Ohio State, while they would still have success, it wouldn't be as profound as it was with Conley. "
Lets change this up: "Take Oden off of Lawrence North and Ohio State, while they would still have success, it wouldn't be as profound as it was with Oden. "
My statement is way more accurate than yours. In fact, I think we saw a team recently that didn't have Oden, but had a Conley-type player in Eric Gordon's team. Is Gordon on this list?
Conley is an excellent player, not the best.
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Post by Kyle Feller on Nov 12, 2008 13:34:32 GMT -5
Except, that they aren't similar in really any way imaginable.
And for your last point.....huh?
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Post by foresterpride on Nov 12, 2008 13:57:28 GMT -5
5. Mike Conley Jr., Lawrence North
The son of Olympic long jumper Mike Conley, the younger Conley played on three-consecutive state championship teams at Lawrence North, teaming with Greg Oden to form one of the most potent high school teams in Indiana state history. The Wildcats won their final 45 games and lost just two in Conley’s final two seasons. He scored 1,157 career points and had a school record 449 assists and 290 steals. He played one year at Ohio State, helping to lead the Buckeyes to the national championship game against Florida. He is currently a member of the Memphis Grizzlies of the NBA. Krider’s Comment: Indiana’s best-ever point guard.
How are Conley and Gordon not similar? Conley 6'1 180 Gordon 6'4 215 Both are guards that drive to the hoop. Conley is faster, Gordon is stronger. I'd say Conley has a little better outside shot but then he was always wide open.
Its not like I'm comparing Montross with Bailey.
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Post by Kyle Feller on Nov 12, 2008 14:39:20 GMT -5
Gordon was a Shooting Guard....not a point man. Gordon's job on any team that he's ever played for is (Shoot 1st, Shoot 2nd, Pass 3rd). Mike Conley's job on any team that he's ever played for is (Pass 1st, Pass 2nd, Shoot 3rd). So while I understand we aren't comparing Montross to Bailey (solid reference)......we aren't really comparing Robinson with Henderson either. I'd say it's more like comparing (keeping it old school) Bailey with Leary.
Eric Gordon shouldn't be on the list of Top 10 Ever....simply because he doesn't have many accomplishments from a team standpoint. But you can't possibly be serious when you say that Mike Conley has a "little better outside shot." And while Conley might have been open quite a bit in High School (Who wasn't on that team?!) he certainly wasn't "always" open at Ohio State or in Memphis.
I'll leave you with this......from Rivals.com.......in comparing Gordon and Conley.
***** PG Mike Conley - "Best pure point guard in the class."
***** SG Eric Gordon - "Power guard is a dominant scorer."
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