Fresno Pacific, GSAC consider D2 Move

[radiodavel]

THE SENIOR REPORTS - Fresno Pacific, GSAC consider jump to NCAA
The link to the article is on our web site at - www.theseniorreports.com/naiad2.htm

interesting article, also there is talk of some southern NAIA schools considering a move, to firm word...but my source had also told me about this group as well as research we did earlier.

[WesleyTheWildcat]

What Southern NAIA schools do you speak of?

[WesleyTheWildcat]

Thanks for the article. Very interesting.

If the GSAC goes to the NCAA then I think that will be the beginning of the end for the NAIA as a viable athletic affiliation. I know that probably sounds harsh but we are speaking about arguably (and I don't think there is much arguement) the best NAIA conference top-to-bottom in the country. Mainstays at the top of the Director's cup standings like Azusa Pacific, Biola, etc.

This to me is the one NAIA Conference that is on par for the most part with many NCAA Division II conference and schools. If they go, plus all the talk going on between Jim Carr (NAIA CEO) and the NCAA does not sound as if the NAIA has long-term plans of being around.

In all seriousness though, wouldn't it be nice if ALL United States Four-Year Colleges and Universities were held to the same standards, had the same recruiting rules, and transfer/eligiability rules. That would drastically change the landscape of college athletics I can tell you that. Especially concerning International student-athletes.

[foresterpride]

I do think you are right. If the entire GSAC goes and the NAIA can't maintain a strong membership in Ohio. The ship might be sunk.

But to say it would be nice to be NCAA is crazy. Standards? The NCAA doesn't even hold its own members to consistant standards. DI athletes can be grad students, I believe DII can as well, thus colleges with limited or no grad programs would be at a distinct disadvantage. And it seems almost every year there is a Heisman trophy candidate who is 28-29 years old.

In many ways the NCAA strips its small members of its ability to spread its mission in its athletic department. Small colleges and universities are founded on personal contact, individual attention and the ability to provide a supportive educational and social environment.

In the NCAA, coaches are limited in recruiting contact, they are limited practice time. There is a rule for every instance. Coaches can't even have athletes over for dinner without reporting it. This doesn't give small colleges much advantage. Where's the personal contact? And I find it funny that you bring up international student-athletes. Didn't ACU just get a probation for a church providing clothing and groceries to international students and international student athletes? If you have any experience with international students you know that they almost alway need some assistance to get the basics when they first arrive. With student-athletes, that responsibility falls to the coach. But beyond that, providing assistance to students when needed is a hallmark of small colleges.

And the NAIA, services athletes much better. Instead of forcing a seperation of athletics from the institution, it allows athletics to be apart of the student experience. What a travesty it would be if all 4yr athletic programs were under the NCAA. Transferring would be a nightmare. Can't imagine how many athletes would give up the sport after a transfer. And developmentally. The NAIA allows for alot of coach-athlete contact. The student gets that one-on-one contact and has more opportunity to develop mentally, socially and athletically under the guidance of the coach.

I think the biggest problem is that the NAIA office doesn't understand the NAIA. The vast majority of staffers never competed or coached in the NAIA. Carr himself was a DIII athlete.

[Loucks]

Forester, I've been following college football for quite a few years and (in recent years) there hasn't been a single candidate in their upper-20's (not to mention one almost every year).

I'm not a coach in the NAIA so I can't speak with authority about the hardships that a potential NCAA merger would bring. However, I do know many smaller D1 schools that do well with the rules that you mention. It would certainly change the way business is done in the MCC, but it doesn't mean that schools couldn't be successful even after the change. I know many D1 schools that recruit on the platforms you claim will be missing (including Notre Dame); personal contact, individual attention, the ability to provide a supportive educational and social environment. It's almost ripped out of their recruiting portfolio. So, I don't know if those things necessarily have to be compromised.

[WesleyTheWildcat]

Aug 2, 2009 1:40:00 GMT -5 foresterpride said:

I do think you are right. If the entire GSAC goes and the NAIA can't maintain a strong membership in Ohio. The ship might be sunk.

But to say it would be nice to be NCAA is crazy. Standards? The NCAA doesn't even hold its own members to consistant standards. DI athletes can be grad students, I believe DII can as well, thus colleges with limited or no grad programs would be at a distinct disadvantage. And it seems almost every year there is a Heisman trophy candidate who is 28-29 years old.

In many ways the NCAA strips its small members of its ability to spread its mission in its athletic department. Small colleges and universities are founded on personal contact, individual attention and the ability to provide a supportive educational and social environment.

In the NCAA, coaches are limited in recruiting contact, they are limited practice time. There is a rule for every instance. Coaches can't even have athletes over for dinner without reporting it. This doesn't give small colleges much advantage. Where's the personal contact? And I find it funny that you bring up international student-athletes. Didn't ACU just get a probation for a church providing clothing and groceries to international students and international student athletes? If you have any experience with international students you know that they almost alway need some assistance to get the basics when they first arrive. With student-athletes, that responsibility falls to the coach. But beyond that, providing assistance to students when needed is a hallmark of small colleges.

And the NAIA, services athletes much better. Instead of forcing a seperation of athletics from the institution, it allows athletics to be apart of the student experience. What a travesty it would be if all 4yr athletic programs were under the NCAA. Transferring would be a nightmare. Can't imagine how many athletes would give up the sport after a transfer. And developmentally. The NAIA allows for alot of coach-athlete contact. The student gets that one-on-one contact and has more opportunity to develop mentally, socially and athletically under the guidance of the coach.

I think the biggest problem is that the NAIA office doesn't understand the NAIA. The vast majority of staffers never competed or coached in the NAIA. Carr himself was a DIII athlete.

Foresterpride, I don't claim to know your background in athletics, NAIA or NCAA, so please forgive me if I question any of your statements however I think you might consider putting a big: "IN MY OPINION" at the top of your previous post.

To say the NCAA doesn't hold its members to its standards, especially when comparing it to the NAIA is almost laughable. You mention all the rules and "non-contact" rules in place by the NCAA but believe that they don't hold their member institutions to standards? Please explain if you can.

As far as graduate students. That RARELY comes into play in from what I've seen. When was the last time you heard of a major contributor on a team being a graduate student? Having grad students play is no more of an advantage than having an NAIA program field a soccer team with a bunch of 32 year-old former International players (This happens frequently in the NAIA). In the NCAA, you have what they call a 10-semester clock and if a graduate student has not used their eligibility then why shouldn't they have the opportunity to still compete while they are in school. This to me is a perfect example of the NCAA looking out for its student-athletes.

I agree with you in a sense that the NCAA is very rules-heavy and it sometimes can be suffocating and restrictive. However, these rules are in place either for a reason or because a previous situation has presented itself that an institution, a coach, or a student-athlete has taken advantage of a situation, thus the rule needed to be put in place. It's not a perfect system but rules typically arn't in any organization right? That's why we Appeals Process.

Finally, I don't understand at all your points on transferring and athlete-coach contact. If all 4-year colleges were held to the same rules and in the same organization, that would greatly simplify the transfer process. The NAIA supposedly has a "gentleman's agreement" with the NCAA about kids going back and forth but rarely is it used. If you play a sport and want to transfer, it can be complicated, plain and simple, and just letting kids run around school to school, can really hurt athletic programs. Ever hear of when a certain MCC basketball player was privately recruited by another MCC coach while he was still enrolled? Yeah, if that happened in the NCAA, probation and loss of scholarships would be right around the corner, in the NAIA, nothing was done.

What is prohibiting athlete-coach contact? I work at a NCAA Division II institution, a Christian one at that, and athletes and coaches are able to speak freely whenever they want. Bible studies, mentoring, just shootin the breeze, these are all common occurences at least where I'm at.

And Loucks, I would guess he was referring to Jason White of Oklahoma about 5-7 years ago who had two devastating knee injuries that kept him out of competition for two years of his collegiate career. But that's just a guess, I couldn't think of any other recent older Heisman canidate.

[incognitoman]

Maybe Chris Weinke? He was 28 and won the Heisman. But, that was 2000...

[WesleyTheWildcat]

Thanks incognitoman, I couldn't think of the other one this century...

And Weinke was delayed in enrolling at Florida State because he spent a number of years in the Toronto Blue Jays minor league system. He pursued his professional baseball career and then went on to football fame at FSU.

[cowboy]

I can't name them but many players play as grad students--they are redshirted and take grad classes in the fall of their 5th year--it's not uncommon

the older player advantage lies with BYU, though--all those kids who did their missions yeas

[incognitoman]

There are a few guys that play as grad students, but it can easily be tweaked. It is usually because the player redshirted his academic freshman year; however, graduated in four. So, if they want to play their final year of eligibility, they will enroll as grad students. However, if for some reason, their school doesn't have grad school, they can easily take half the classes they need to graduate their senior year while taking the other half their fifth year. I know Troy Smith was a grad student his Heisman year, and I believe Matt Leinart was taking only 2 classes his last year, and they were both grad classes.

[cowboy]

I hope NAIA survives--I know schools jump up for benefits or prestige that never materializes

[WesleyTheWildcat]

Aug 2, 2009 21:00:23 GMT -5 cowboy said:

I hope NAIA survives--I know schools jump up for benefits or prestige that never materializes

What program has made the jump and not received so called prestige?

Most would agree that putting NCAA on your wall instantly gives you more credibility, not all would say that, but I believe many would. Believe me, I wouldn't mind seeing the NAIA continue to exist because that's what I've known for a long time and that's my alma mater, but I don't know any NAIA program turned NCAA that's regretted that decision. St. Thomas might be a good example right now but I think there decision to go back to NAIA was more financial than a prestige decision.

[foresterpride]

Lets just look at Indiana.

3 quick ones.

St. Joe- They still showcase the Aluminum Bowl as a crowning moment in their football history. Actually it was a 0-0 tie in the NAIA's first football championship, both teams were declared winners.
Anderson- Have they done anything since moving to DIII? They used to be a strong NAIA member
Trine/Tri-State- They had an excellent football team the last couple of years, but get little or no recognition for it, prior to the move they got alot of FW attention. USF gets all the football attention now.

I could start naming more formerly strong NAIA members that made the move that are now midpackers despite increased financial backing.

The thing is, any benefit from moving to the NCAA is internally generated and a result of increased commitment to athletics by the institution.

[foresterpride]

Just a quick look at the Directors cup standings from NAIA 97 edition compared to the 09 edition. (1997 NAIA standing on the left)

1997 NAIA DII
18 U of Mary currently 232nd in DII
27 Incarnate Word currently 97th in DII 27th in the NAIA
67 East Central Okl N/A in DII
*no post season experience for this athletic department

Its worse in DIII
2 Pacific Luth. 267th in DIII
34 Tri-State 262nd in DIII
54 Texas Luth. 275th in DIII

I just want to prove a point that a move to the NCAA doesn't mean anything if you don't commit the resources. What kind of publicity or legitimacy does the NCAA have for these formerly top NAIA universities? And what kind of student experience is the NCAA providing for these student-athletes? Are they really getting their monies worth of the NCAA picking up the travel cost to national championships?

I'd contend that these universities would long for the old NAIA days.

[clinttjohnson]

Maybe if enough N.A.I.A. conferences go ncaa d2, they'll have to have just 1 naia division.